The CEO Mindset with Patrick Coveney

Zannah Ryabchuk

Hi and welcome back to Three Lessons from Breakthrough Leaders. With me, Zannah Ryabchuk, CEO of Breakthrough Global, and I’m here again with Dr. Bart Sayle.

Bart Sayle

Hello, everyone.

Zannah Ryabchuk

And this podcast is all about giving you insider tips and know-how from the world’s foremost leaders and creative talents, distilling their knowledge and experience into three lessons, which we guarantee will help you and your company to unleash your potential.

Bart Sayle

We also have some big news: our new book, “Energy-Driven Transformation: A CEO’s Guide to Momentum, Impact, and growth will be published in September.

Zannah Ryabchuk

We know so many of you are struggling with change fatigue in an ever transforming reality at the moment, and so we can’t wait to share this book with you. Look out for further announcements later in the year.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Today we’re joined by Patrick Coveney, the Group CEO of SSP Group PLC. Patrick’s a strategic, people-focused leader with deep roots in the global food industry, having previously spent 14 years as the CEO of Greencore Group, where we met. He was a managing partner at McKinsey and Company and serves on various boards, including his current role as a non-executive director at OFI, Patrick was an Oxford Rhodes Scholar and is a proud dad of four.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Hello, Patrick. Welcome to the Three Lessons from Breakthrough Leaders podcast. We’ve been waiting for some time to get you on this podcast I think. You are a very, very, very busy man to pin down.

Patrick Coveney

Well, I mean, I I would always welcome the opportunity, Santa, to talk to you and Bart, and it’s a long time in particular since the three of us have caught up. So it’s great to finally do it.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Yeah, I’m so pleased. Maybe Bart can share a little bit about how we first started working with you, Patrick.

Bart Sayle

Yeah, I mean, we were. I can’t remember how we were introduced, Patrick. How we were introduced?

Patrick Coveney

Like any good client relationship, we ended up having a good lunch together in London. That’s right. And then I read the book, and then we had a really good conversation around how the need for Breakthrough in Greencore.

Bart Sayle

Yeah.

Patrick Coveney

And you and Zannah and the team really helped me reset how Greencore was led, and that worked very well. Now the the slight disconnect in that whole journey is just having set that all up. I got recruited for this really interesting new job that I’ve been doing for the last four and a bit years, which is the CEO of SSP. And so, I think the platform of what we did together proved to be very helpful for Greencore. Although I wasn’t able to live it out as was originally intended when we put that plan in place.

Bart Sayle

Could I just ask, what what did you personally get out of that, Patrick?

Patrick Coveney

Quite a powerful question, that Bart. Actually, one of the things that I was looking for was a refreshed sense of mission or meaning, personally as well as corporately. You know that was coinciding with me heading towards 50 in terms of a life milestone, although not quite there. What I was kind of asking myself really is: Is this the in the, which is very important to me, in the kind of work part of my life is what do I really want to do for the next decade? And how do I inject a level of kind of meaning and aspiration? Alongside what hopefully by then I had already demonstrated, which is a sort of a basic competence to be able to kind of managerially do the job. And I think the engagements that we had together helped me a lot in doing that. And I think just the exploration of all of that, personally as well as with my team, probably opened me up to having a clearer sense as to what I should do with my life in the 50 to 60 to 65 timeframe, and I think that was a consequence of the engagement that we had.

Bart Sayle

Wow! So, tell me a little bit more about the the meaning you are now getting that maybe you weren’t before.

Patrick Coveney

Work matters a lot to me. I actually enjoy it for a start, right? And so, I’m not somebody who seeks to put what I’ve described as barriers between me as a person, me as a business leader, me as a friend, me as a father. I tend to think of a single narrative that runs through all of that. In a way, by the way, that is somewhat unusual to the culture you would see in Britain, but actually not that unusual to the culture you see in many other parts of the world. The the kind of seamless blending of work with social with friendship, so I’m a kind of a believer in in one story, not multiple stories, if I can put it in that way.

Patrick Coveney

And the other sort of feature of my background in that context is I’m somebody who had very little formal preparation or apprenticeship or training to become a business CEO. Like I was appointed CEO of Greencore when I was 36. I’d only been in the sort of formal workplace for 9 or 10 years before I was appointed. I went from being effectively an academic and professional rugby player to working for nine years for McKinsey, and then had a sort of stretch but different role into finance for a couple of years. And then suddenly, you know, I was CEO of a public company, and the reason I say that is that the vast majority of the skills that I have developed, strengths or weaknesses as a CEO, I’ve learned on the job. I didn’t have a long apprenticeship of how to do it, and my kind of common thread of what generated that learning, as I looked at that, was a desire to stretch myself to do things that were truly interesting. A particular aspect of that in Greencore was the opportunity to create and operate not only a high-growth business but a very international one. And the business that Greencore became went through an iteration of being quite a international and growing business, but then actually centred back to being a very large domestic UK and Irish business. When I thought hard about what I wanted to do in the next kind of chapter of being a business leader, I actually wanted to help create and operate a truly international business, and to use that as a way of better seeing, better understanding, and better engaging with the full world. So the transition to SSP has been very stressful and demanding in many, many ways, but extraordinarily exciting because of that. You know, we’re building you know businesses in India and Saudi Arabia and Australia. We have a huge scale business in North America, you know, right across the Middle East right now. You know, we operate in in 38 different countries, and in a very simple way, a proxy for where the world is going economically is where new airports are being built.

Bart Sayle

Yeah.

Patrick Coveney

And any time a new airport is being built, they need a commercial programme to underwrite the economics of that airport, which is typically about bars, restaurants, convenience stores, you know, generating concession fees and income to fund the capital costs of building the airport. And we’re the people who do that. And so I get to, in effect, to both lead a business, but to understand and see and connect the world as we do it, and so it’s a very different and, at least for me personally, a more engaging and meaningful job because of that dimension.

Bart Sayle

Lesson One: The CEO Mindset.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Last time we were speaking, we were sort of joking, but also very seriously talking about you are dealing with an enormous number of stakeholders. Like this is a complicated business with a lot of different people involved, and you’ve used some words here that I keep kind of hearing as like a motif, almost like challenge and stretch. And you know, there’s been some stressful bits, but lots of fantastic challenge. Talk to me a little bit about that and how you’re navigating that world, because a lot of the CEOs who listen to this will recognise that in their own lives, but also this navigation of all the different stakeholders that you’re involved with, because it sounds complicated to me.

Patrick Coveney

Let me just start with a kind of slightly left field answer to your question, which is: you have no business being a CEO if you’re going to give some sort of “woe me, my world is terrible” type narrative, right? And like, I mean that seriously in quite a number of different ways. First of all, you cannot do the job for any sustained period of time if you have that as the mindset. Secondly, you get zero sympathy with stakeholders, and rightly so by complaining about how hard it is. Like we have people in our business at the you know who are currently working our units in Bahrain. Guess what? What happened in Bahrain yesterday? Iran fired a missile at Bahrain, right? You know we have people who have come from Nepal, the Philippines, and India who are away from their families for 11 months of the year. You know opening restaurants at you know 4o’clock in the morning. They have a tough life. I do not, right? And so, yes, there are levels of stretch and complexity in in role. But ultimately, this role is an enormous privilege to have, and also enormously enjoyable. And the moment you stop recognising that it’s a privilege and start being unable to enjoy it. You’re just doing the wrong thing, and someone else should step in and do it. And so, I say all of that as a kind of a principle in answering your question.

Patrick Coveney

Now, let me come back directly to what you said. Yeah, this is a complex business. We have 52,000 people who work for us. We run three and a half 1000 bars and restaurants in over 400 different airports or stations in 36 countries. We have an interesting network of brand partnerships, whether that’s with Starbucks or Burger King or Marks and Spencer or Pret a Manger, who would be our four biggest ones. But then hundreds of small local brands that we also activate in airports, and we have to understand. You know, on top of that, in about 13 or 14 of the 38 countries in which we’re in, we go to market with joint ventures. So we find local business partners who we work with to combine our capability, our format and brand relationships, our operating systems with their local knowledge and local relationships, and so you know when I am look at what we’re building in India or in Malaysia or in the Philippines or in Thailand or in Saudi Arabia or Bahrain or Abu Dhabi or Cyprus, and actually also in many airports in the US, we’re leading and influencing a business that’s ultimately trying to deliver great restaurant experiences for travellers, but we’re doing that either with or through a set of local partners as well. And then I’ve got the normal public company stakeholders of shareholders and debt holders who give us the money to invest behind the business and expect to get a return on that. But that’s the job.

Zannah Ryabchuk

So I love Patrick’s passion and enthusiasm, his level of intentionality around this CEO mindset. Understanding that actually we’re extraordinarily lucky to find ourselves in the positions in which we’re in, and we need to seize every day and squeeze every bit of juice out of it. Bart and I often on the Programmes, if we find that you know things are getting a little bit complainy or people are starting to get too concerned about all of the barriers that they see in their way, it’s easy to just remind them. You know, there’s never been another time in the whole of human history where people have been as fortunate as we are at this moment. You know, even the pharaohs of Egypt or the emperors of China wouldn’t have had something quite so luxurious. And yet, we can find ourselves complaining about the smallest things. So, it’s good to just remind yourself sometimes that actually we are incredibly lucky, and we need to make the most of that luck.

Bart Sayle

So, whether you’re a CEO or a senior leader, remember that you cast a shadow over the organisation. And the mindset you have and you communicate is going to affect or infect everyone else. So, be aware of your mindset, and the one of the best mindsets to have is carpe diem.

Bart Sayle

Lesson Two: Leading Through Global Shocks.

Bart Sayle

I mean, we’re currently in a very difficult position around the world, and you know, one of the things it’s affecting a lot is air travel. How do how do you keep your people motivated as we go through? We don’t know how long it’s going to be. How how is that affecting the morale within your company, and how do you keep because you you are so motivating just on on this call, I’ve I’ve been amazingly motivated already. I could just sit.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Yeah me too.

Bart Sayle

I could just sit and listen without actually asking any questions.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Let’s get some stuff done.

Bart Sayle

Yeah.

Patrick Coveney

Yeah. No. So, Bart, it’s a good question, and I might pick it up in two contexts actually. So, I think the level of sort of collective stress, uncertainty, fear, with all the consequences of those things that societies generally are feeling right now, is more elevated than any other period in my working life, with the possible exception of the first three or four weeks of COVID, where we just didn’t have a sense of how to calibrate what the fear and risk actually was. Right, and by the way, you know I’m 55 years of age, right? I entered the workplace in 1996 with McKinsey, when you know what we all look back on now is the kind of you know period that history forgot, right? A path towards globalisation and harmony and peace and meritocracy and and where for the most part you could look at business leaders, political leaders, spiritual leaders around the world with a level of kind of awe and respect around how they conducted themselves, and you kind of felt pretty good for the path of the world that was on. That’s not where we are now, and the leadership imperative for me and others is not to imagine it’s going to get any better anytime soon. That’s the context that we’re in, and it’s different. And I I see that and understand that in a way almost more as a father than as a business leader, because me describing how things were to a 25 or 23 or 21 or 18-year-old child of mine who’s entering the world and sees the world as it is right now, it doesn’t have much meaning. And I think that is reflected generally in the challenge of being a leader in the workplace right now. You have to build the sense of meaning within your own enterprise. And with your own ecosystem, for want of a better term, because you’re sure as hell going to get yourself caught up in all sorts of mental anguish if you expect to get it from somewhere else.

Patrick Coveney

Now, on top of that, in the context for our business, we have what’s going on with travel. Now, it’s much more nuanced than it’s publicly represented because, and we spoke about this, by the way, in our results three weeks ago. So, so actually, the level of air travel, if you take a global view on that, on this has been surprisingly not unaffected. But the impact of what’s currently going on in the Gulf on the global aviation system, taken in aggregate, is probably a lot less than people feared it was going to be three, four months ago. But you know what? What happens, you know, is there’s a level of sort of resilience in the human spirit where people find a way. You know, they you adjust to what the normal becomes, right? And so people still want to travel. Yeah, for the most part, you have to be alert to an understanding of what’s going on in the world, but also try to have some focus on what you can control, because if frankly you allow yourself to be consumed only by what, you know, what you see on Twitter or Truth Social, you will be distracted from the things that actually you have to do as a business leader and and need to do, frankly, to keep yourself on a journey of sort of happiness and development and and good health. It’s very easy to step off that path, either in you know individually or collectively, and and to put yourself to a bad place.

Zannah Ryabchuk

There’s been so many shocks over the last few years. My observations at the moment, and the people that we’re speaking with, is everyone seems a lot more resilient to it than they would have been if this had happened in 2015. A lot more resilient to it.

Patrick Coveney

Yeah, and I think Zannah, some of that is probably learnt, right?

Zannah Ryabchuk

Yeah, exactly.

Patrick Coveney

So you know, again, I would say the the emotional investment in leading a business through COVID, and I’m not alone on this. Actually, I think a lot of business leaders found this was enormous because it was different from the dynamics of having geopolitical uncertainty, or there was a sort of genuine and deep sense of ca, and I think what you saw coming out of COVID actually was quite a lot of leadership change in the businesses that were right in the flow of COVID. Because I think it took a very significant emotional toll, and a lot of people did need to, and businesses actually did need to reset post that. I was probably, you know, an example. Whereas, what I think the period since then, with you know the Ukraine war, the you know the various iterations of the Gulf War since very significant escalating levels of inflation and resource scarcity and availability coming out of all of that, and a lot of sort of political uncertainty and sort of either clashes or uncertainties around identity everywhere has just created a sort of normal, which has an elevated level of uncertainty and risk, which is just how the world now is. And I think some of that is, you know, like in anything else, you you made the point of in relation to travel earlier. Like we adjust and learn to prosper, and I mean, I use the word prosper actually because it’s not. If if you only embrace it as the notion of survive, that won’t be enough, right? You you actually have to yeah, and and so we’re we’re learning how to prosper in that environment, and it’s a different environment from you know all of us are sometimes guilty of this: is that you look back on the past in a kind of rose-tinted kind of way, you know. And I’m not pretending that everything in the past was perfect; it wasn’t. But there definitely is an elevated level of geopolitical uncertainty now, and and we just we’ve just all got used to trying to figure out how to run businesses in the in the middle of all of that. But we have to do more to run them. We have to actually drive them to succeed, right? And that’s what we’re trying to do.

Bart Sayle

I think what was different in the past, and you explained it very well, is that we all live with the concept of the future and our future, and that’s what’s changed. It’s changed massively. So you went back to the 1990s, and I can remember that. I mean, Breakthrough was formed 1991. You know, I was very, very positive about the future that the future would be great, and so on. And that’s no longer the case for a lot of people. You know, you talked about your children and your son and the world they’re entering into. You know, they’re not going to have the same concept of the future that we had. There’s lots of surveys, but but now they don’t even feel that they can do better than their parents. Whereas certainly I was brought up in the sense that I would grow beyond what my parents had actually done and given me.

Patrick Coveney

Yeah.

Bart Sayle

Yeah, and and that’s a big that’s a big existence thing I believe.

Patrick Coveney

So that dynamic that you were describing-that we entered. You know, I went to Oxford in 1992 as a graduate student, and I left a country in Ireland that had 21 or 22 percent unemployment and was constantly on the cusp of being tipped into some sort of bailout from somebody, right? And and there was no money in Ireland. I mean, people were poor, like quite literally, and emigrated all the time. And you look at what’s been possible for that generation, generation not just of Irish people, but across many other places in the 30 years since. You know, extraordinary transformation and change, but now you know we’ve been able to give our kids wonderful privileges in terms of their you know upbringing, and we’ll also fortunately be able to support them financially in different ways to get started in different things, which is you know a great benefit of the life I’ve been able to live and what I’ve been able to do. But still hard though, you know. If you talk to a 21 or 23 or 25-year-old right now, they don’t generally think that they can aspire to a better life than their parents.

Bart Sayle

Yeah.

Patrick Coveney

They don’t.

Bart Sayle

That’s it.

Patrick Coveney

It’s not a feature.

Bart Sayle

Yeah, that’s what I find.

Patrick Coveney

Now, the reason that one of the reasons that this job is so fascinating, as I said earlier, is that if you have that conversation in Saudi Arabia, or you have that conversation in Malaysia, or in Indonesia, or India, they do.

Bart Sayle

Yeah.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Yes.

Patrick Coveney

They’re in they’re in a different stage of development, and the energy that’s coming from the kind of entry level people into the workforce there. And by the way, you see some of that still in parts of America. You know, spend time on the west coast of the states, and you look at the level of technological innovation, and there’s still a huge drive there to reset things in parts of America. I would say too.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Yeah, very interesting, and exactly what we see play out in our team, with our clients, with where we go in the rest of the world is completely mirrored, and we’re entering a brave new dream here. You know,

Patrick Coveney

But lots of things flow from that. You see, because if you don’t have that sense of mission or conviction around what’s doable, and I’m not talking about a kind of naive dreamer mindset here, like that’s that you know there’ll always be a few people who are that. Then, if you lack that, then you see lots of other things happen. You know, people don’t work as hard because they don’t see why they should. You know, perception becomes reality, right? And that’s that’s what happened. You know, so once people lock into a view, then they marshal the facts to reflect that point of view, right? And that’s the challenge.

Bart Sayle

Patrick has led companies through two major global shocks. First of all, COVID, and now the current geopolitical conflicts.

Zannah Ryabchuk
And we think his advice is sage. We can get overwhelmed by the doom scrolling and the less than pleasant realities that we’re sometimes faced with, and yet we can only control what we can control. We only have influence over what we can influence. So, giving yourselves permission to not worry about absolutely everything, focus on what is within your control, and make sure that you, one degree at a time, intentionally lean towards that control and make it into something that’s valuable and worthwhile. Will make you feel more in control of everything else that’s going on out there.

Bart Sayle

Lesson Three: Finding Direction in a Moment of Choice.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Another thing I really wanted to talk to you about, Patrick, and again we touched on it when we spoke before, very very briefly, was you had a bit of a near death experience a few years ago, just when you started on this new role, and I I would love to hear more about that, your experience, and how that’s changed the way that you view the world in many ways.

Patrick Coveney

I did, yeah, and it has changed how I view the world. So two things: firstly, and to kind of demystify it to listeners, you know, I was six months into the job of CEO of SSP October 2022, and I picked up this really aggressive blood infection randomly, most likely through a cut in a barber shop in Dublin, by the way, but I I picked I picked up the infection a couple of days later when I was in France. and it was effectively a form of sepsis, and it was fortunately diagnosed just about in time. But I spent over a month in hospital on intravenous drips and had to have emergency neck surgery to get the infection cut out from…

Bart Sayle

Oh my god.

Patrick Coveney

behind two discs in my neck now in many ways it was more stressful for my my wife than it was for me because it all happened so quickly and I was suffering from such a level of infection and almost related delirium that I didn’t really process the level of risk that was attached to it but I got really good medical care. And you know, if I ever wanted to see sort of firsthand what genuine deep domain expertise is when you need it, it was the quality of the medical team that looked after me. Also, by the way, the quality of care that the nursing team provided alongside specialist doctors. So, could have been a lot worse.

Patrick Coveney

The two sort of reflections on it. It undoubtedly reconnected me with a sense of spirituality generally and Christianity specifically, and part of that was a function of the environment in which I was in, which is if you’re in a like an Irish hospital that I was in, and you know, all you can do for day after day for five weeks is sort of walk around. There, there weren’t many places you could go to actually that didn’t end up with you being in a church, and so as a result, I ended up spending quite a bit of time actually being immersed in it in a spiritual as well as a medical environment, and so that that has been a piece of how I have lived my life since. And then I think the second thing that was relevant, maybe to some of the things we started on in this podcast, was once I’d had the surgical intervention, which was about a week after I was in hospital, I was effectively on from a low base, a straight line of recovery, where each of the milestones that I was due to hit, I did hit. So the kind of risk came out of it because it just built steadily in terms of the recovery from there. But it had quite a long tail. Like this, it started in the middle of October, and I wasn’t effectively discharged in the sense of being able to kind of get on with my life fully until the following March, and I remember sitting down with the the doctor who was the professor of infectious diseases, who was prescribing the various treatments and testing me for this, right at the end of the sort of formal treatment stage, was sort of 7o’clock on a Monday evening in Dublin, and I said, Paddy, listen to the last session that we’re having. I said, can we just go right back to the beginning here? You know, what do you think really happened? And he said to me, We’ll never know for sure, but the most plausible explanation is that you picked this up through a cut, most likely in the barber shop, based on the diagnostic that we had. And so I said, “Well, what are the learnings? He said, “Well, he said the benefit you’ve had of what you’ve been through with me is that I can probably take about 1000 ailments that could kill a guy in their early 50s and say you’re not going to suffer from any of that. You are actually a profoundly healthy person in terms of your kind of underlying physiology. And he said, “I’ve been looking at your bloods now, you know, pretty much every day for 100 days or more, and that would be the conclusion. You said you were just very unlucky, and I said, “Well, I don’t think about it as being very unlucky. I think I was very lucky that I found you and I found Ashley Pointon and and the staff who’ve taken me through this. I said, “If my if my wife was here, or my daughters, or my mother, or the chairman of the company I work for, I think they would all say to you, “This can’t have been entirely random. There must have been some contextual factor, you know, associated with travel or work stress or absence of sleep, or that I created the conditions in which this infection could come in. And he looked at me and he said, “Patrick, I’m not your psychiatrist, right? And they could all be right. You might have been suffering from stress. You might have been travelling too much. You mightn’t have been looking after yourself enough. But if that’s true, I couldn’t see any of that in your blood. So he said, “Be careful about the decisions that you make here. He said, “If he said if I’m your amateur psychiatrist, I would say you’re not suffering from any of those things. So decide what you want to decide, but don’t make a decision based on a perception of what happened. What happened to you here is you picked up a freak infection randomly. Could have happened to you no matter what you were doing. I looked at him. I said, Paddy, you have his name is Paddy Malin, and I said, Paddy, you have no idea how important an intervention that is because if you had said something different to me, I would be making a different life choice now, and but you haven’t. You’ve been very factual, and so by the way, I still lose this argument with my wife and my mother and my chairman. They still think it was caused by a contextual fact.

Bart Sayle

You always lose that argument. I lose that argument as well.

Patrick Coveney

Yeah, yeah, but but but there is something because if it goes back to where we started, which is this idea of having a you know a sense of mission or purpose for what you’re trying to, I get a lot of that through work, right? And so I don’t get all of it through work. There’s there there are other things that really matter to me as well. And so I guess it is philosophical, but you know you get one crack at this life, right? And you want to do things that are, you know, meaningful and rewarding and interesting. And to me, that is work is a big part of that. As I say, I mean, being a husband and a father and a friend is also very important to that. But it sits as one narrative, as I said earlier. And so, the health issue that you reference does give you pause to reflect. Right, and it certainly did for me. But my reflection actually was to appreciate and be grateful for what I had, not to change it.

Bart Sayle

As you heard Patrick say, finding meaning in your role and your work is of paramount importance to him, and really it is to all of us. He’s had a couple of occasions where, to find more meaning, to find more stretch, to find more adventure, it’s meant making a serious choice about staying or leaving, and he’s made that choice and continue to grow.

Zannah Ryabchuk

So think about where you are in your own life, in your own career, maybe with your own health. Imagine that you also experienced something that was surprising, maybe a life or death experience. How could that inspire you to maybe review things in a different way, take different choices, go down a different path that might take you in a different direction on your life’s journey.

Zannah Ryabchuk

So, Patrick, I will take you through your hot seat questions now. Are you ready?

Patrick Coveney

I hope so. Yeah.

Zannah Ryabchuk

What’s the most exciting thing you’ve ever done?

Patrick Coveney

Becoming a father.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Finish this sentence. Success is?

Patrick Coveney

a function of what you do well every day.

Zannah Ryabchuk

What brings you energy and motivation in your everyday life?

Patrick Coveney

I’m fortunate. Like I, I wake up energetic and wanting to do stuff most days, but work does. I mean, I get a lot of intellectual and emotional stimulation from the the work opportunities that I have.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Fabulous! Thank you very much, Patrick. Thank you.

Bart Sayle

Fantastic! Thank you, Patrick. You’ve shared so much of yourself in this short time, so I really thank you for that.

Patrick Coveney

Bart, Julia, and Zannah, thank you. Bye bye.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Thanks again for joining us. Remember to hit the subscribe button and join us again for our next set of lessons. If you’ve got any questions or comments, email us at bartsayle@breakthroughglobal.com or connect with us directly on LinkedIn at Breakthrough Global.

Bart Sayle

And we’d also love for you to share this episode on your own social media and review and rate this podcast on the player of your choice.

Zannah Ryabchuk

Thank you, as always, to our production team, Julia Soltysova and Victoria Okoroafor at Breakthrough Global, and Robin Leeburn at Fairly Media, and of course, thank you for listening.

Bart Sayle

And remember, our new book, *Energy-Driven Transformation: A CEO’s Guide to Momentum, Impact, and Growth* will be published in September.

Zannah Ryabchuk

We’ll be sharing more details in the coming weeks about how you can pre-order the book. So watch this space.