Smarter Business, Lighter Touch with Amit Chincholikar

Bart Sayle

Hello and welcome back to three lessons from breakthrough leaders. I’m Bart Sayle, founder of Breakthrough Global, and today I’m here with Justine Kane, our Chief of Staff at Breakthrough.

Justine Kane

Hello everyone.

Bart Sayle

And this podcast is all about giving you insider tips and the know how from the world’s foremost leaders and creative talents. Distilling their knowledge and experience into three lessons, which we guarantee will help you and your companies to unleash their potential.

Justine Kane

Amit Chincholikar is the Group President of Human Resources at the Hinduja group, with a career spanning leadership roles at Yokohama Off Tires, Tata Group, among others. Amit has shaped HR strategies across performance, rewards, diversity and talent leadership. He has lived and worked across Singapore, the US and India, and managed HR for over 50 countries. He has also gone on to win several awards, including the CHRO of the year 2023.

Bart Sayle

Lesson One: You Will Find Magic with the Consumer.

Bart Sayle

Amit. You’ve had such a fascinating career, from delivering packages in the cold at UPS to leading HR for a global conglomerate, and that’s quite a journey. I imagine those early experiences must have shaped how you think about leadership.

Amit Chincholikar

First of all, thanks for having me Bart. It’s an absolute privilege to reconnect and have a conversation with you. And you know, the few days that we had spent together was truly, no pun intended, a breakthrough. So to come back to your question. I’m a firm believer that what happens early in life and in career really shapes your thinking, your experiences and your point of view. So, you know, like you referenced, I mean, the beauty of joining a global leader that I started out in my first job as straight out of campus as a freshly minted management trainee was, the initial expectation was, you know, you’re joining as a management trainee. You know, you’ve pretty much arrived, and therefore you’re going to sit, write policy, make strategies, and pretty much, you know, change the world in a lot of ways. And you know, like any 22 year old, that’s the way life goes. And within three months, after a really nice induction, and having been through several things, I had a very interesting assignment in the northern part of India in small, obscure, not so well known cities or towns, where, after being a management trainee in human resources, my job was To make sure that I picked up and delivered packages as part of the role. And I think the really important leadership lesson that really came out at that point in time was that a brand that you work for or work with can only take you that far. So for example, we had the best scanner technology that the world had to offer. It delivers to every address in the United States, every zip code in the United States. But what mattered to a person who I was delivering this to in a little town in the cold of northern India, where it was, you know, foggy and temperatures that were zero, sub-zero, was “Is my package being delivered, or is it being picked up on time?” That’s all they cared for. So I think the real value of leadership really came from saying, when you say culture eats strategy for breakfast, I think the customer experience really eats culture before breakfast, because you need to, actually, you know, deliver the package before breakfast in a lot of ways. So I think that experience really shaped the thinking of saying, you know, always customer before brand and always customer experience every single time.

From a leadership perspective, it really helped me realise that leadership is not really about a movie, but it’s about a play or a theatre performance or a drama. You can’t just shoot it once and move on in life. You have to get it right every single time. So if you are in the Phantom Of The Opera, the chandelier has to fall exactly that same way every single show, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s the first show or the 10,000 show. So I mean, you know, the customer experience is real, and you’ve got to stay true to a customer promise every single day.

Bart Sayle

Another aspect of what you’ve said is that must have been quite a humbling experience, but also a human experience. You know, in our company, we have a value which only relates to India and northern India. Actually, it’s chop wood, carry water. And that applies to everybody. So whether it’s the founder and chairman or whether it’s the new intern, that whatever needs doing just needs doing, and everybody should have responsibility to make that happen. And there’s no, there’s no prima donnas, you know, relating to your theatre metaphor. And I think that you know, my experience is that when you get the prima donnas, that’s where culture really starts to fragment.

Amit Chincholikar

No, no, absolutely. And I think what also happens over a period of time that I have seen Bart is that, you know, we tend to classify saying I am a, you know, two alphabets and one number, right? Which is B to B, B to C, D to C, A to B, A to Z. The whole point is each one of us needs to be acutely cognisant of the fact of where does money get made in the business. And invariably, no matter how much of artificial intelligence we bring into the system, or, you know, whatever, the final recipient of a product, a service, or anything you have to offer, is normally a customer, which is A human being. Recognising, therefore, that there is a human element that will, that is true in every interface, and therefore recognising that that happens every single day of the journey is where the humbling experience comes in. And which is why I think a lot of great leaders actually spend time, you know, we’ve seen that with the CEO of Uber and multiple other express delivery companies, but also software companies, technology companies, where they spend maximum amount of time in front of their customers. Also to understand how our customer needs, or consumer needs actually changing. What is a stated and unstated, let’s say, expectation that people have. What is the symptom, and what’s the problem? So what are you trying to solve for happens when you when everyone really gets in front of the customer on a regular basis? And like you said, if that is not in your culture, if that is not in your DNA, then you will be out of business.

Bart Sayle

And one of the things I’ve seen over my time, both in the corporate world, and now working from Breakthrough is that

some leaders, they’re insulated from all of that, and the business becomes what they see on PowerPoint and in presentations. I mean, how do you think leaders can stay connected to the reality?

Amit Chincholikar

Yeah, so I think it was Isaac Newton, who said, right, strategy without execution is just imagination, right? And I think

there is, there is, I mean, if you like imagine, then you should listen to the song, right? So from that, so look, execution sometimes can tend to be the most boring part of anything you do. But you know, fulfilment. And I mean, you know, companies like Amazon also say this, right, which is that customer experience and strong execution builds trust. And, you know, sometimes provocatively, I, you know, I like to say this that you know, in the battle between the handsome, dashing boyfriend and the dull, boring husband. Eventually, the dull, boring husband always wins.

Justine Kane

No comment.

Amit Chincholikar

And the reason for that is beyond the point. Everyone seeks predictability, everyone seeks comfort, everyone seeks trust. It is important to recognise that the devil is in the detail and the strength is in the execution. So the famous NASA story, right, where the janitor was still sweeping the room, someone said, you know, why you doing this? He says, Listen, because it’s part of my mission to put a man on the moon. So the unification of purpose, and I think, therefore, the other key aspect, where, where leaders really, I think, bring out the best in people is to inspire them to a cause that is larger than themselves. You know, for everyone to punch above their body weight, and very often, if you have a great manager, if you have a fantastic leader, and you have a cause that you know, you’re able to inspire people with. You know, that’s where, that’s where magic happens. So therefore, I think, for example, if you have to inspire young people, or if you have to get them to, you know, recognise, I think it is true that young people can truly change the world.

It’s just that someone needs to tell them that it requires a little bit of execution, along with a lot of passion.

The other is, it is something that you can actually see as being in your control. You know, I always like to talk about climate change as an example, because people say that you know, for true climate change to happen, you know, you need legislation, you need government authorities, you need corporations to do their bit. And therefore, there is nothing in the world that we wouldn’t do for them, and there’s nothing in the world, they wouldn’t do for us. So we basically spend our time doing nothing for each other. If climate change otherwise, is explained to an Amit or a Justine or a Bart, by saying, “What you need to do is make sure that you plant two trees in your neighbourhood on your birthday.|

Now imagine if 50% of the population were to do this across the world. 30% were to do this. Look at the amount of trees that we would be able to plant in the world that would simply take in the amount of carbon dioxide we generate and give out more oxygen. Now that appears like a more tangible thing that I can do, which is in my control.

Justine Kane

And it’s about empowerment. I think what you’re talking about Amit, which I think is really interesting. And I love how you’re referring to empowerment on the front line too, because I think that’s, that’s the key, isn’t it? So the customer level, so that the front line, if they’re empowered, and they are, you know, taking personal accountability, then that’s, that’s what’s going to make a difference on that bottom line, isn’t it for them to succeed?

Amit Chincholikar

No, absolutely. And I mean, so it comes back to a fundamental human emotion of people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did. People will never forget how you made them feel.

Bart Sayle

Amit’s belief that execution happening at the customer level, it really resonates with me and with us. So often companies focus on strategy, but we can see from Amit’s experience, and I would endorse that, that the front line is where the magic happens.

Justine Kane

So with all the best technology leadership and network around you. What truly matters is delivering for the customer. At the bottom line, that is what’s most important.

Bart Sayle

So as you’re listening to this as a leader, how can you guarantee that you stay connected to that reality, that front line and experiencing that magic?

Bart Sayle

Lesson Two: Great Leaders Balance Empathy and Accountability.

Amit Chincholikar

So I think we are used to, generally, or the world is used to two very typical leadership styles. There is one which is around, metaphorically, thumping the fist on the table and saying, “This is what I want done, and this is how I will get it done, and this is how you need to do it.” In some ways, it inspires, but it intimidates as well. The other is a little bit of a benevolent style, which is to say, you know, so you basically want to be popular. And I read somewhere that if you want everybody to like you, then you should be selling ice cream. So, how can you be firm yet how can you be gentle? So, you know, very often it is possible to be able to strike that balance if leaders see themselves also as being vulnerable. If leaders see themselves as, you know, there is not a reputation that they have to maintain of having succeeded or having done everything precisely, fundamentally and done it exceedingly well. That’s why I believe in a lot of ways, leadership is like parenting, right? You know, the reason why we consistently fail at parenting on an ongoing basis is that there is no single leadership style, or there is no single parenting style that works with different kids and at the same time, or at any given, you know, juncture, because while you know, you are evolving, they are evolving as well. And I remember when my son was in kindergarten, right? He, you know, one of his teachers at some stage asked him, How old is your dad? And my son said, “My dad is four years old. So, you know, the teacher was like, “How can your dad be four years old?” And my son said, “Well, he became a dad only after I was born, isn’t it?”

Justine Kane

Brilliant.

Amit Chincholikar

So, so, you know, as a leader, also, you know, your style is evolving as you are kind of going through. So I think recognising that there are multiple ways. There are different people. So I think, you know, people expect that from a leadership style, people should adjust to the leader. I think the greatest leader is the one who adjusts to his or her teams that work with them. And if you have to get the best out of them, sometimes you just have to let them be. So the whole concept of get your entire self to work really comes from saying we will have a myriad of personalities. We should be able to find a way by which everyone is able to do their best, and by the way we hold people accountable. So I think a lot of holding people accountable comes from being transparent. It comes from being communicative. So I think just being curious, I think makes for leaders to be far more empathetic, far more open, and yet hold people accountable at, you know, at the same time. So is it possible? Of course, it is. Is it easy? Hell no, it isn’t.

Justine Kane

No.

Amit Chincholikar

But that’s precisely the reason why it’s got to be done.

Justine Kane

Yeah.

Amit Chincholikar

That is, that is the key, you know, differentiator between a good leader and a great one.

Bart Sayle

One thing I would add to that is, is that for that to grow into that kind of leader, a person really has to work on themselves. Not just work in the job and work in the role and work in the business, but actually work on themselves. And seeking feedback is a great way of starting that. It’s about it’s about awareness and self-awareness. I mean, empathy is also about awareness of other people and a high awareness of what they’re likely to be feeling. You need to add to that a strong level of self-awareness as well.

Justine Kane

I would love to ask you a little bit about your thoughts about women in leadership. So I know you’ve got some really interesting ideas around that.

Amit Chincholikar

Yeah, so, you know, I’ve always been a great advocate of Who do you learn from the most? So if you were to go back in life, I think the people that you typically learn from the most, very early, is typically, I mean, in most cases, it’s not a sweeping generalisation, is your mother. If you have an elder sibling, then you know, typically a sister. A teacher in school, and in most cases, these are actually women. So your early grooming, or your early setup in life, your early inspiration, always comes from here. In a lot of ways. And again, if you were to go back, why is it that that happens? It’s because there is empathy, there is the power to listen, there is the power to admonish, and there is the power to be fair. And if you were to bring these things into the workplace, right, guess who gets them the most? Right? And therefore, I think it’s a travesty of justice that we lose this out. So, you know, when people say, “You don’t know what you’re missing”, I say “You’re damn right.”Because if you hide it, and if you didn’t miss it, the world would be so much of a better place. So, you know, again, the simple explanation for that always from a business commercial sense, which is the business case for diversity. Again, the tyranny of metrics, right? Comes from 80% of consumer decisions in the world are either taken by or influenced by women. So if you don’t have enough women within the system, you are really losing out on a perspective that a customer or a consumer would pretty much have. So it’s pretty simple from the point of view of wanting to do it. It’s very intuitive, and that’s precisely why it doesn’t get done because we love complexity, right? We love, you know, something that we don’t understand. Now this is so simple to understand that we simply just don’t do it.

Justine Kane

So the best leaders blend empathy and accountability. So being candid and holding people accountable isn’t about being harsh, it’s about being clear and fair. And Amit talks a lot about using humility as a tool to build your resilience and build the outcomes that you’re looking for with your team and also your consumer.

Bart Sayle

That’s great Justine, and to add to that, I love the idea of leadership being a balance. For me, it’s a balance between the art of leadership and the science of leadership. So to all our listeners out there, ask yourself, have you ever had a time where you’ve had to really lean into that balance, maybe where you’ve been too nice or, on the other hand, too strict, and it didn’t work? What would you do now?

Bart Sayle:

Lesson Three: Humour Can Be Overlooked.

Bart Sayle

That brings me to one thing that I love about you, Amit is and one thing I’ve discovered in this conversation is how much of a poet you are you actually speaking in poetry, and I love that. But the other thing that I appreciate is your perspective of how you use humour. You’ve already used it in this podcast to great extent. I’ve even been told by our producer to stop laughing. So.

Justine Kane

That’s brilliant.

Bart Sayle

So, which is difficult for me if I find something funny. So i really appreciate that persepctive that not only can i see that you really believe in humanity and bringing that into the workplace, where previous generations it was sort of driven out, but also you see humour as a leadership skill. But also you’re very good at it. I mean, was there a moment where you just realised that? Or is it something you just sort of organically evolved into? Or have you always been like that? I imagine you’ve always been like that?

Amit Chincholikar

It starts early if you see humour as a differentiator. Because it just brings a degree of calm into any room no matter how tough the situation is. So you know I remember having at the very early part of my career where there was an employee making and started it by showing a copy of their payslip. That was the first slide. So, everyone in the room was flabbergasted. Saying, you know, why are you, “What’s this supposed to mean?”. The employee said, “I was told to start the presentation with a joke.” Right?

Justine Kane

That’s great.

Amit Chincholikar

So, I think, what happens especially in leadership, I think humour becomes very important because it humanises the leader. I think gone are the days where you saw a leader as someone who was carved out of stone and therefore was untouchable in some ways. You looked up, you were inspired. All of that is fine. But I think humour humanises people. And I think it allows people to be a lot more at ease. And being a lot more at ease, to my mind, the key to innovation. Because, you know, we keep telling people, “Think outside the box.” and then we keep pushing them into a box, time and again. so if you have to bring out the best in a majority of people, I think it’s just important to humanise the whole element. And while you can do a lot of it through empathy, i think its fantastic if you’re able to do it through humour. Because what happens is people therefore realise that if you can tolerate a joke, right, it means that you do something outside of work that looks beyond the balance sheet or a powerpoint presentation or a concept note or a two by two or anything like that. So once you’re able to discover a side to a human being, which is funny, then it becomes really nice. Because very often humour is actually tragedy in life that you’re communicating in a different way. That actually is the true original form of humour.

Bart Sayle.

Yeah.

Amit Chincholikar

So imagine when a, you know, a doctor tells you to get some exercise. And you go back and you haven’t lost any weight and the doctor says, “I thought I told you to get some exercise.” So you tell the doctor, “Listen, earlier I used to watch golf on television, now I watch tennis.” So the doctor’s not going to be amused but at least the doctor’s gonna be like “Come on, lets do something different.” So I think a lot of great solutions and a lot of great innovation can come if you are able to inject a bit of humour into the workplace in a very natural, subtle kind of way.

Bart Sayle

Natural yeah.

Amit Chincholikar

And i think it is something that people believe that you’re either humours or you’re not. I firmly believe its the opposite. i think it is something you can develop. It is something you can get better at. Some people are maybe naturals at it but some people are natural at storytelling. Some people are natural at excel sheets. Some people are natural at arithmetic. It doesn’t mean that other people can’t do it. Right? It’s the same with humour. And again, humour stays a lot with people long after you’ve left the room. And if that happens, right, then I think again thats the unfolding of, you know how is it that you’re able to kind of tell a story to people. people will smile a lot more in a room for a meeting with you the next time round.

Justine Kane

Humour is often overlooked as an opportunity to connect and humanise your connection with your peers, your colleagues, your consumers. And its often seen as unprofessional and inappropriate to be used but it is an incredibly smart and powerful tool when used correctly and organically.

Bart Sayle

And Amit was a really good example of that. And he actually sees humour as a leadership skill. If you remember he said that its soemthing that can be developed and can be improved. And I use humour a lot in my leadership and i think that one of the important things is that it’s used on yourself as well. So that you become the object of a lot of the humour.

Justine Kane

I think we are now at the Hot Seat questions section. Are you ready?

Amit Chincholikar

Always am.

Justine Kane

Excellent. So first question is, what inspires you in life?

Amit Chincholikar

At the bit of a philosophical level, i think it’s just the joy of being alive, you know, in this day and age. It’s just so inspiring because there is a big world out there. There is much to do. there is so much to look at. there is so much to learn, to appreciate, to love. So i think just the fact that you are alive every single day is not something that I ever take for granted. But it’s something that really really inspires me because you always say that the best day to start was yesterday and the next best day is today.

Justine Kane

Oh great, I love that. I imagine you’re quite the magnet Amit. What you put out, you get back. Next question, finish the sentence: “Success is…”

Amit Chincholikar

It’s temporary and it’s an illusion.

Justine Kane

Great answer. Really great answer. What brings you energy and motivation in your everyday life?

Amit Chincholikar

So, i think one is the ability to make a difference in every way possible. So i think we all have this infinite ability. I tend to overestimate because of my optimism, happy puppy, running around kind of attitude or approach. To say that there is, there is a lot to accomplish. There is a lot to do. And by the way, not much of it is related to work. But there is just so much more to get up and kind of do every day in life. Like I said, I have a 25 year old and a 21 year old so the motivation in everyday life is to stay relevant as far as they’re concerned. Answering their questions or asking them questions which don’t make them roll their eyes and say “Oh dad.” So yeah.

Bart Sayle

I have a 23 year old as well. It keeps me on my toes.

Justine Kane

Likewise.

Bart Sayle

Well Amit, thanks so much. It’s been such a joy.

Justine Kane

Total joy, Amit. Thank you so much for your insights and I love the mission that you’re on.

Amit Chincholikar

Thanks so much Bart, thank you so much Justine and Julia for having me. I always say that except for 2020 and 2021, happiness, joy and energy is infectious. If you keep aside those 2 years where being positive was not necessarily the best thing, I think it is the perfect way to live a life which is about being positive, being happy, being infectious and you know helping people on their respective journeys as well. So thank you for having me.

Bart Sayle

Well thank you for joining us. Remember to hit the subscribe button and join for our next set of lessons. And if you have questions or comments, email us at bartstayle@breakthroughglobal.com or connect with us on LinkedIn at Breakthrough Global.

Justine Kane

We’d love to hear your leadership stories and we’d also love for you to share this episode on your own socials and review and rate this podcast on your player of choice.

Bart Sayle

And thank you to our production team Julia Soltysova and Victoria Okoroafor at Breakthrough Global and RObin Leeburn at Fairly Media.

Justine Kane

For any business inquiries, you can reach us at contact@breakthroughglobal.com. Have a wonderful rest of the day.